'STRYVELAND CYMRU' Homeland Defence Movement.: May 2012

From: Lyn Jenkins [mailto:clynyrynys@gmail.com]
Sent: 13 May 2012 19:30
To: John Etherington
Cc: Richard, Ioan (Councillor); dave haskell; Jenny Keal; alun john richards; Ceinwen Rees;
Caroline Evans; geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; Angela Kelly; Tim Shaw; Royston Jones; sian Ifan;
Wyck & Toey; Terry Breverton; brynoilyn@aol.com; S W; Tairgwaith Action Group; Oili Hedman; Mark Duchamp; GwenHenning; Rupert Wyndham; Anthony Bright-Paul
Subject: Re: 4700

I don't follow the LOGIC here..

It is ALSO   "OFFICIAL" that wind energy will replace fossil fuels !!

It is ALSO "OFFICIAL " that wind turbines look beautiful to many people !!

It is ALSO "OFFICIAL" that wind turbines are supported by CAT Machynlleth
who are OFFICIALLY   powered by renewables !!!!!????

It is ALSO "OFFICIAL" that wind turbines will STOP GLOBAL WARMING !!!

It is   ALSO OFFICIAL that "climate change " and "global warming " exist !!!

It is ALSO OFFICIAL   that CO2 causes global warming !!

It is ALSO OFFICIAL that wind turbines GENERATE ELECTRICITY
about 80 or 85 PER CENT OF THE TIME !!!

AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED "OFFICIAL " IS OFTEN A LOAD OF
BOLL*KS !!!

MANY OF YOU DON'T ACCEPT THE OTHER "OFFICIAL " STATEMENTS.....
.......SO WHY IS THIS ONE CORRECT?????
WHY MUST THE 4700 UNITS BE ACCEPTED.......WHEN IT IS CLEAR THAT A
HUGE PERCENTAGE OF UK HOUSES ARE EMPTY AT ANY ONE TIME........
FOR A PLETHORA OF REASONS........AND THEREFORE ARE NOT USING
ELECTRICITY??? !!!

.............AND THE BULK OF OCCUPIED UK HOUSING STOCK IS HEATED BY
GAS????

MR IOAN RICHARD........I WILL REMIND YOU THAT YEARS AGO YOU ALSO
WOULD NOT ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT YOU COULD HEAT.....HEAT,
REMEMBER......A HOUSE WITH 4700 UNITS PER ANNUM !!

YOU USED TO USE AN ILLOGICAL ARGUMENT ABOUT LEAVING A
3KW ELECTRIC KETTLE BOILING, AND THAT 4700 UNITS WOULD NOT BE
MUCH GOOD.

OF COURSE, KETTLES DON'T BOIL FOR LONG PERIODS. YOU ALSO
MENTIONED ELECTRIC FIRES.........WHICH DO BURN LECCY FOR HOURS .

A 2KW ELECTRIC FIRE LEFT ON 5 HOURS PER DAY BURNS   10 UNITS OF
LECCY . IN A 100 DAYS PER YEAR , IT BURNS 1000 UNITS ON ITS OWN !!

100 DAYS IS ONLY 27 PER CENT OF A YEAR.........and   5 HOURS IS ONLY
20.8 PER CENT OF A 24 HOUR DAY !!!

Lyn

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 2:24 PM, John Etherington <eth.pbont@virgin.net> wrote:

You wrote

“This argument is very boring – the figure 4.7MWh may be right or wrong
– but - it is the OFFICIAL figure and if don’t use it we get ridiculed!”

I agree entirely – it is why I said to Lyn that I don’t want to resume an argument
about annual electricity average.

However the 4700 kWh is what RUK (BWEA) uses
http://www.bwea.com/ukwed/index.asp - if that is “official”

An even smaller figure appears on the DECC website re energy bills

http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/stats/publications/qep/3906-qep-dec11.pdf

This says of standard electricity: “All bills are calculated assuming an annual
consumption of 3,300 kWh.” (page 18 footnote 2 Table 2.2.2)

“Lies, damned lies and statistics”

John

From: Richard, Ioan (Councillor) [mailto:ioan.richard@swansea.gov.uk]
Sent: 13 May 2012 11:55
To: John Etherington; Lyn Jenkins
Cc: Terry Breverton; dave haskell; Jenny Keal; Tim Shaw; Royston Jones; Mark Duchamp;
S W; Wyck & Toey; Angela Kelly; Tairgwaith Action Group; Ceinwen Rees; Caroline Evans; alun john richards
Subject: 4700

This argument is very boring – the figure 4.7MWh may be right or wrong –
but - it is the OFFICIAL figure and if don’t use it we get ridiculed!

From: John Etherington [mailto:eth.pbont@virgin.net]
Sent: 13 May 2012 11:13
To: 'Lyn Jenkins'
Cc: 'Terry Breverton'; 'dave haskell'; 'Jenny Keal'; 'Tim Shaw'; 'Royston Jones'; 'Mark Duchamp'; 'S W'; Richard, Ioan (Councillor); 'Wyck & Toey'; 'Angela Kelly'; 'Tairgwaith Action Group'; 'Ceinwen Rees'; 'Caroline Evans'; 'alun john richards'
Subject: RE: IMPORTANT :NEW WELSH WIND FARM TO PROVIDE SECURE, HOME-GROWN ENERGY- 8 May 2012

Lyn

Years ago we had a long and boring exchange concerning home electricity use and whether the 4.7 MWh per year is a realistic average for all homes.

I don’t want to go through all that yet again.

However, the 4.7 MWh is based on the domestic/ industrial and commercial total UK consumption figures given in Annual Abstract of Statistics and Digest of UK Energy Statistics. If it is wrong, it means that DTI then DBERR and now DECC have been steadily lying for the past decade and more.

Might this not have been noticed? However, if this is the case then we might as well not bother with any numerical analysis as we would have no idea what is true and what isn’t.

I fully agree with you that the figure is only a tiny per cent of what MacKay says that a single person uses which was EXACTLY my point in suggesting that we use the 125 kWh/person/day as the gold standard of comparison WHERE APPROPRIATE. I have never thought about this before but have had it put into my head by Lance Mytton who provided technical advice for National Opposition to Wind (NOW).

It is the same reasoning as comparing wind power output and CO2 mitigation with the fuel use and CO2 output of 747’s and other big airliners. Such comparison makes piddling wind output look stupid, and political decisions even more so.

John

******************************************************************
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the administrator on the following address:
administrator@swansea.gov.uk

All communications sent to or from the Council may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with relevant legislation

Mae'r e-bost hwn ac unrhyw ffeiliau a drosglwyddir gydag ef yn gyfrinachol ac at ddefnydd yr unigolyn neu'r corff y cyfeiriwyd hwy atynt yn unig. Os ydych wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn drwy gamgymeriad, dylech hysbysu'r gweinyddydd yn y cyfeiriad canlynol:
administrator@swansea.gov.uk

Bydd yr holl ohebiaeth a anfonir at y Cyngor neu ganddo yn destun cofnodi a/neu fonitro yn unol Ã’r ddeddfwriaeth berthnasol
*******************************************************************

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4995 - Release Date: 05/12/12

sian ifan s.ifan@ntlworld.com

18 May (2 days ago)

to me

From: D Haskell [mailto:djhaskell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 18 May 2012 16:59
To: Mark Duchamp
Cc: John Etherington; Richard, Ioan (Councillor); Tim Shaw; Terry Breverton; Ceinwen Rees; Wyck & Toey; Caroline Evans; farm-holiday@btconnect.com; geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; benbow@orange.net; S W; Royston Jones; kim@communitiesagainstturbinesscotland.com; Susan Crosthwaite; alun john richards; GwenHenning; Oili Hedman; Lyn Jenkins; brynoilyn@aol.com; David Bellamy; Jenny Keal; amk@clara.co.uk; john@johnroworth.co.uk; Mary Sinclair; sian Ifan; Tairgwaith Action Group
Subject: Re: 4700

Hi Mark,

Misunderstanding Power and muddying waters

As a follow up to my recent email hopefully the following will offer more clarity for you:

In the UK everyone understands that WIND FARMS produce POWER i.e. ELECTRICITY.

Thus millions of folk realise wind farms do not produce gas, oil....or indeed milk....the odd few that think otherwise come under the category titled

‘village idiot’.....full stop!

Therefore would you not agree that if you lived in the UK and heated your house by gas, oil or anything but electricity, then you are NOT going to deem a wind farm is going to HEAT your home are you......to be sure, you would have to be a bit silly to think otherwise!

When wind developers, or whoever state, that when a wind farm will POWER X number of homes...everybody gets the message as electricity is electricity....not gas, nor oil....thus it is not only insulting to the general public, but will put thecause in an unfortunate light to have a wind warrior imply or state that folk will think otherwise!

On this issue Lyn Jenkins is talking a load of old rubbish, and that is why I have, and indeed Dr John, persisted in trying to get him to see this....but alas, it seems to no avail.....we have failed.........a great pity.

Personally I can offer no more.

Cheers,

Dave H

From: Mark Duchamp

Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:01 PM

To: D Haskell

Subject: Re: 4700

Dear all,

Me tapence's worth:

Forget about 5700. Perhaps Lyn could say in his letters to the media that what's wrong with the windies' propaganda is not a figure, but in fact a word : the turbines will power x homes. That's because most people will think "power" includes what heats them and their water. After all, oil is what "powers" their car. So why not think gas is part of what "powers" their homes?

Indeed, the windies could be drawing a big advantage from the confusion.
Why not ask a local paper to run a poll: In your opinion, what "powers" your house?
1) Electricity alone, or
2) electricity, plus the oil, gas, coal and wood you may be using to heat your house and your water?

Then, if the poll turns in our favour, you could write a letter saying: in the interest of truth and fairness in advertising, we ask that the words "power x homes" be replaced by "powers, in x homes, the following: x lightbulbs, one kettle, and those appliances usually powered by electricity."

I may get a bloody nose from jumping into this fray, but I would so love to see my friends kiss and make up... :)) - a prize well worth the risk,
methinks.

Ready for the bloody nose :))

Mark

Mark Duchamp +34 693 643 736
Executive Director, EPAW
www.epaw.org
President, Save the Eagles International
www.savetheeaglesinternational.org
Chairman, World Council for Nature
www.wcfn.org

On 17 May 2012 20:15, D Haskell <djhaskell@btinternet.com> wrote:

A BRIDGE TOO FAR

MY FINAL WORD

Lyn,

You are still confusing home electrical usage to total home energy usage, Domestic users with Business, and you appear to not, in a numerical sense, understand what AVERAGE means either:

Of course some will use electricity to heat their homes, but that will be a minority compared to solid fuel or mains gas due to cost.

That is why John is on Economy 7 to try and contain costs.

My late brother heated his flat in Cardiff with night storage heaters....but his electrical energy data was but for one household.....many other households use different sources (gas, coal, etc) for heating, hot water.

The derivation of the Average figure comes from all domestic users, not a select few...which you keep quoting.

And you are again attempting to muddy the waters by making out that your BUSINESS USE is now “for a few tea towels”....

You contradict yourself, and I will remind you what you have already stated:

............AND WE SOMETIMES HEAT THE LIVING ROOM WITH AN ELECTRIC FIRE WHILST THE OIL CENTRAL HEATING IS OFF ALL DAY !!.........THAT'S BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE LIVING ROOM !

...........AN ELECTRIC IMMERSION HEATER HEATS WATER !! AND WE COOK BY ELECTRICITY !!...........AND WE AIN'T GOT A WIND TURBINE TO DRY THE CLOTHES !!

HAVING SAID THAT, WE ARE NOT TOO FRUGAL EITHER !! OUR HOUSE IS ISOLATED.........AND WE RUN A BUSINESS.......AND PLENTY OF STRANGERS SEE THAT DAILY........SO FOR SECURITY'S SAKE .....THERE ARE PLENTY OF LIGHTS ON !!

All the items in bold, except lighting, use lots of watts, but keeping lots of lights on (more watts) will also increase your electricity bill...can you not understand this....you also state, “We run a business”...QUITE SO.......therefore you cannot compare yourself to a PURELY DOMESTIC ELECTRICAL POWER USER such as myself or Dr John........hence your 10,000 figure.

To repeat, ad nauseum, 4700 is a reasonable and sound figure for UK DOMESTIC ELECTRICITY USAGE

Dr John says:

QED – it is pointless and only exciting to someone wishing to quote the figures.

Now I can only speak from my point of view, but I do not find it pointless to discuss domestic energy usage and I do not follow when he says:

only exciting to someone wishing to quote figures.

To be sure, from an environmental, economic and scientific point of view I am very interested in my home energy usage, and figures are more meaningful than subjective comments - as such figures/statistics are very helpful ifunderstood correctly and applied intelligently.

Thus I assume this is Dr John’s way of saying, to discuss domestic power usage with you, will prove fruitless and futile?

Therefore to pursue this dialogue further with you, as John so rightly points out, is a waste of time......you can take the horse to the water......

Therefore this is my last word on the subject as it is indeed proving a waste of time.....dun me best though, as they say.

Dave H (The dreaded Beast of Boncath)

From: John Etherington

Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:41 AM

To: 'D Haskell' ; 'Richard, Ioan (Councillor)' ; 'Lyn Jenkins'

Subject: RE: 4700

I previously wrote in two separate emails: -

“I don’t want to resume an argument about annual electricity average.”

“This is why I said I didn't want to resume this correspondence about domestic leccy consumption.”

QED – it is pointless and only exciting to someone wishing to quote the figures.

Now to something useful. Does anyone have documented figures for direct subsidy on generating sources?

Wind – we know the RO and FiT numbers. Nuclear – no subsidy since 1995-6?. Gas – no subsidy – never has been? Coal – there was a subsidy intended to encourage the UK coal industry. Does it still apply and is it specific to generating use?

I exclude the greenies attempts to cite the carbon emission costs that we don’t pay for. One – it may not matter. Two – it is impossible to give a value to something which is not understood.

John

From: D Haskell [mailto:djhaskell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 16 May 2012 19:49
To: Richard, Ioan (Councillor); John Etherington; Lyn Jenkins
Cc: Tim Shaw; Jenny Keal; Terry Breverton; Angela Kelly; Ceinwen Rees; Wyck & Toey; Caroline Evans; farm-holiday@btconnect.com;geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; Oili Hedman; benbow@orange.net; S W; Royston Jones; kim@communitiesagainstturbinesscotland.com; Susan Crosthwaite; alun john richards; Tairgwaith Action Group; Mark Duchamp; GwenHenning; brynoilyn@aol.com
Subject: Re: 4700

TRUTH COMES AT A PRICE

Ioan,

Would you not consider even intensely boring as a small price to pay to bring Lyn on message regarding domestic electrical energy usage?

Surely you do not wish a very good and prolific letter writer to expose his misunderstanding on this matter to the press and general public?

To do so, would be to stand by in silence, whilst a friend of yours projects the image of a swivel-eyed protestor...a bad image for the cause!

Perhaps you could help Lyn in a positive way and offer your own domestic electricity usage – for privacy sake exact figures are not necessary - just state by magnitude which figure you are closer to: 10000 or 4700.

Lyn’s figure, as you know, is 10,000....but it is only now after some perseverance that he now concedes his figure includes BUSINESS usage as well as domestic....IT IS NOT PURELY DOMESTIC......so one is making progress on this score.

Indeed, 4700 is a meaningful AVERAGE figure for the UK and needs to be said so....especially in the case of Lyn.

Please do not try to shut down a discussion because you are personally INTENSELY BORED......nobody is holding a gun to your head, and if you feel that way and you do not wish to help Lyn, then there is always the DELETE button on your keyboard.

Dave H (The Beast of Boncath...grrrr)

From: Richard, Ioan (Councillor)

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 5:06 PM

To: John Etherington ; Lyn Jenkins

Subject: RE: Fw: 4700

This 4700 is intensely boring!

From: John Etherington [mailto:eth.pbont@virgin.net]
Sent: 16 May 2012 16:22
To: 'Lyn Jenkins'
Cc: 'dave haskell'; Richard, Ioan (Councillor); 'Tim Shaw'; 'Jenny Keal'; 'Terry Breverton'; 'Angela Kelly'; 'Ceinwen Rees'; 'Wyck & Toey'; 'Caroline Evans'; farm-holiday@btconnect.com; geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; 'Oili Hedman'; benbow@orange.net; 'S W'; 'Royston Jones';kim@communitiesagainstturbinesscotland.com; 'Susan Crosthwaite'; 'alun john richards'; 'Tairgwaith Action Group'; 'Mark Duchamp'; 'GwenHenning'; brynoilyn@aol.com
Subject: RE: Fw: 4700

This is why I said I didn't want to resume this correspondence about domestic leccy consumption.

I assume I have not made it clear.

We have no heating or hot water cost except for the night time E7 recharge of the storage heaters and a big hot water tank (17,026 kWh) – this provides all we need during the day (that’s how E7 works – sorry if you didn’t understand that)..

So the 17,026 kWh is, as I said, equivalent to gas-use in a house with gas.

The remaining 4203 kWh represent the normal electrical consumption of an average house.

Thus I concluded that 4700 kWh is a reasonable average and the 16,500 kWh.gas average is also close to our hot water/heating use via E7 so that seems a reasonable average also.

John

From: Lyn Jenkins [mailto:clynyrynys@gmail.com]
Sent: 16 May 2012 15:22
To: John Etherington
Cc: dave haskell; Richard, Ioan (Councillor); Tim Shaw; Jenny Keal; Terry Breverton; Angela Kelly; Ceinwen Rees; Wyck & Toey;Caroline Evans; farm-holiday@btconnect.com; geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; Oili Hedman; benbow@orange.net; S W; Royston Jones;kim@communitiesagainstturbinesscotland.com; Susan Crosthwaite; alun john richards; Tairgwaith Action Group; Mark Duchamp; GwenHenning; brynoilyn@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: 4700

John,

According to your previous letter, you said YOUR heating and water usage was 17,026 kWh.....You said ..."heating and water is another matter ---17.026kWh --uhhhg !

You also said.... "MY E7 NIGHT TIME 17,026kWh ".

Fair enough, so you use Economy 7 for heating and water AT NIGHT.........not gas........so YOU must be using 17,026kWh PLUS 4203 kWh TOTAL ELECTRICITY to POWER YOUR HOUSE !!

IF YOU USE 21229 kWh in YOUR HOUSE........ what on Earth are you arguing with me about??

YOU ARE USING 4.5 TIMES THE "SUPPOSED " NATIONAL "AVERAGE " OF 4700 UNITS !.......AND YOU ARE CAREFUL AND FRUGAL !!

ECONOMY 7 OR NO ECONOMY 7 ........THAT IS JUST THE PRICE OF ELECTRICITY !!

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PRICE.........WE ARE TALKING TOTAL USAGE OF ELECTRICITY PER UK HOME ........and YOURS is 21229 kWh , John.......WAY, WAY over 4700 kWh USED FOR ALL UK CALCULATIONS !!

So, why is Dave mocking my 10000kWh and you are in agreement?

Dave uses LPG for heating.........I WONDER WHAT THAT LITTLE LOT AMOUNTS TO IN kWh ????

I FIND THIS WHOLE DEBATE INCREDIBLE........YOU, DAVE AND IOAN WANT TO ACCEPT AN UK OFFICIAL "AVERAGE " OF 4700 UNITS..........AND HERE YOU ARE USING 21229 UNITS IN TOTAL YOURSELF !!

YOU ALL SAID I WAS WRONG !!

SINCE WHEN IS "ECONOMY 7 " NOT ELECTRICITY?????????

You also say you are up to "20000 UNITS HEATING" WITH COAL....so YOU prove my point even further..

I appreciate you need more heat because your wife is unwell, and I'm sorry about that.

However, it does not change your total HOME usage of 23229 units......... which is way over the 4700 units PER HOME quoted by these BWEA LIARS AS THE "UK AVERAGE" !

Lyn

All heating and hot water is Economy 7 so my meter readings can give me the use of all other electricity – lighting, cooking, computer, washing machine, TV, etc (there is a small amount of fridge and freezer electricity on E7 so at a guess you would have to add say 5% for that.

Last year (2011-2012) the electricity use (without the E7 consumption) was

4203 kWh – real data from the bill, not guesswork

Add 5% for night time fridge etc - 4413 kWh

This is still less than the BWEA average of 4700 kWh

The heating and water is another matter – 17,026 kWh - uhhhg

However we have no further costs of gas or oil, and E7 is a fraction of the daytime price. It is also much less carbon-intensive (if that matters) as night electricity has a much higher proportion of nuclear than daytime (coal and gas-fired being “turned down” to follow demand).

2. Gas which you asked about at 16,500 kWh. This is closely comparable with my E7 night time 17,026 kWh for heating and water. Indeed as this is a bigger than average house it isn’t too bad (NB since my wife has been unwell both this winter and last, we have had the occasional coal fire paid for out of my pensioner’s winter fuel allowance. This probably adds another 2000 kWh or so of energy use to heating – say 20,000 kWh in total).

It is the widespread urban use of gas and rural use of oil for heating/hot water which pushes average electricity use down to a small percentage of the total and makes 4700 kWh a believable average .

John

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 9:51 AM, John Etherington <eth.pbont@virgin.net> wrote:

We use a “WHOPPING 17,026 kWh....”

Which is almost equivalent to the amount of gas we don’t use !! This is my point.

John

From: Lyn Jenkins [mailto:clynyrynys@gmail.com]
Sent: 16 May 2012 00:37
To: John Etherington
Cc: dave haskell; Richard, Ioan (Councillor); Terry Breverton; brynoilyn@aol.com; Angela Kelly; Ceinwen Rees; Mark Duchamp; Tim Shaw; Royston Jones; benbow@orange.net; Caroline Evans; S W; Tairgwaith Action Group; alun john richards; Jenny Keal;geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; Wyck & Toey; Oili Hedman
Subject: Re: Fw: 4700

John,
You don't need a tumble dryer to dry your clothes .........just buy a 30 ft wind turbine and hang your washing from the blades !! They'll be dry in no time !!!!...........Keeps the crows off the garden too !!!

At last some TRUTH, you "frugal John" use   a WHOPPING   17,026 kWh.....[or even kwhrs......it does not matter THAT   much ! ]    ....APART from your frugal use of electricity . THAT is POINT I have been making all along.

MANY PEOPLE IN THE HILLS OF WALES...........HAVE NO OIL AND NO GAS AND NO COAL   AND NO WOOD.............ONLY ELECTRICITY !!!   Do you think THEY can live on JUST 4700 units for their homes ?????

The WIND TURBINES of WALES are MEANT TO SUPPLY THE PEOPLE LIVING NEAR THEM...........WHO OFTEN HAVE NOTHING APART FROM ELECTRICITY IN ISOLATED AREAS !!......IT IS ALL   CR*P , WHEN 4700

UNITS IS USED FOR THE SUMS !!

I wish your wife a speedy recovery from her illness.

Dave,

Good grief !!    ......    and I always thought YOU were the infamous   "Beast of Boncath "   according to BWEA rumours ??? ! ..... I'm shocked that it could be something else !!

You are another frugal one ! You even record your leccy usage over time.
HOWEVER , you don't tell us how much LPG you use !! It may be difficult equating its   amount   to kWh of electricity, BUT THAT IS WHAT OFGEM HAVE MANAGE WHEN THEY SAY A MEDIUM -USER HOME GETS THROUGH 16500 kWhrs of GAS per annum.

It is clear that you two..........as well as Joe Public ....use FAR MORE ENERGY in your homes than   a MERE 4700 units of electricity !!

WHAT IF YOU ONLY HAD ELECTRICITY .....AND NOWT ELSE ??

The term "POWER A HOME "   IS BEING ABUSED BY THE WIND ENERGY COMPANY , BECAUSE THE FACT THAT OFGEM STATES   that an AVERAGE HOME IN THE UK USES    FIVE TIMES THE ENERGY TO ..........POWER/HEAT/ENERGISE/ CALL IT WHAT YOU LIKE....... FROM GAS ...THAN IT GETS FROM ELECTRICITY   [ ie 16500 compared to 3300 ].........IS NOT BEING SAID BY ANYONE ANYWHERE IN ALL OF THIS UK "ENERGY HOME USAGE " DEBATE !!!

I'VE NEVER SEEN IT IN THE PRESS !!

EVERYBODY   WANTS "OFFICIAL" FACTS............WELL YOU CAN'T GET MORE "OFFICIAL" THAN OFGEM !!!

I ASK YOU AGAIN............WHY IS 16500 kWh   ...or kwhrs........ OF GAS FOR HEATING AND COOKING IN THE AVERAGE UK HOME NEVER , EVER MENTIONED   ANYWHERE ?????

AT THE RISK OF BEING REPETITIVE..............."WASTEFUL" LYN AIN'T GOT .....NO GAS ,....... NO COAL, ....... AND NO WOOD !!

............AND WE SOMETIMES HEAT THE LIVING ROOM WITH AN ELECTRIC FIRE WHILST THE OIL CENTRAL HEATING IS OFF ALL DAY !!.........THAT'S BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE LIVING ROOM !

...........AN ELECTRIC IMMERSION HEATER HEATS WATER !!   AND WE COOK BY ELECTRICITY !!...........AND WE AIN'T GOT A WIND TURBINE TO DRY THE CLOTHES !!

HAVING SAID THAT, WE ARE NOT TOO FRUGAL EITHER !!   OUR HOUSE IS ISOLATED.........AND WE RUN A BUSINESS.......AND PLENTY OF STRANGERS SEE THAT DAILY........SO FOR SECURITY'S SAKE .....THERE ARE PLENTY OF LIGHTS ON !!

DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT ??????????

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 4:29 PM, John Etherington <eth.pbont@virgin.net> wrote:

Lyn

1. Electricity. Our house is a fair size – it was originally two cottages now converted into one house.

Last year (2011-2012) the electricity use (without the E7 consumption) was

4203 kWh – real data from the bill, not guesswork

Add 5% for night time fridge etc - 4413 kWh

This is still less than the BWEA average of 4700 kWh

The heating and water is another matter – 17,026 kWh - uhhhg

It is the widespread urban use of gas and rural use of oil for heating/hot water which pushes average electricity use down to a small percentage of the total and makes 4700 kWh a believable average .

John

BTW - In publishing letters don’t use the abbreviation “kwhrs”.

The correct abbreviation for the SI units and multiple is kWh (i.e. upper case W for watt and lower case h for hour. The ‘kilo’ multiple is lower case k. Confusingly mega, giga and tera are all upper case M, G and T).

SI units are never pluralised with an ‘s’. All this may sound finicky but to scientists and engineers it is kin to not being able to spell.

From: Lyn Jenkins [mailto:clynyrynys@gmail.com]
Sent: 13 May 2012 19:30
To: John Etherington
Cc: Richard, Ioan (Councillor); dave haskell; Jenny Keal; alun john richards; Ceinwen Rees; Caroline Evans; geoffrey.sinclair@virgin.net; Angela Kelly; Tim Shaw; Royston Jones; sian Ifan; Wyck & Toey; Terry Breverton; brynoilyn@aol.com; S W; Tairgwaith Action Group; Oili Hedman; Mark Duchamp; GwenHenning; Rupert Wyndham; Anthony Bright-Paul
Subject: Re: 4700

I don't follow the LOGIC here..

It is ALSO   "OFFICIAL" that wind energy will replace fossil fuels !!

It is ALSO "OFFICIAL " that wind turbines look beautiful to many people !!

It is ALSO "OFFICIAL" that wind turbines are supported by CAT Machynlleth   who are OFFICIALLY   powered by renewables !!!!!????

It is ALSO "OFFICIAL" that wind turbines will STOP GLOBAL WARMING !!!

It is   ALSO OFFICIAL that "climate change " and "global warming " exist !!!

It is ALSO OFFICIAL   that CO2 causes global warming !!

It is ALSO OFFICIAL that wind turbines GENERATE ELECTRICITY about 80 or 85 PER CENT OF THE TIME !!!

AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED "OFFICIAL " IS OFTEN A LOAD OF BOLL*KS !!!

MANY OF YOU DON'T ACCEPT THE OTHER "OFFICIAL " STATEMENTS............SO WHY IS THIS ONE CORRECT?????
WHY MUST THE 4700 UNITS BE ACCEPTED.......WHEN IT IS CLEAR THAT A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF UK HOUSES ARE EMPTY AT ANY ONE TIME........FOR A PLETHORA OF REASONS........AND THEREFORE ARE NOT USING ELECTRICITY??? !!!

.............AND THE BULK OF OCCUPIED UK HOUSING STOCK IS HEATED BY GAS????

MR IOAN RICHARD........I WILL REMIND YOU THAT YEARS AGO YOU ALSO WOULD NOT ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT YOU COULD HEAT.....HEAT, REMEMBER......A HOUSE WITH 4700 UNITS PER ANNUM !!

YOU USED TO USE AN ILLOGICAL ARGUMENT ABOUT LEAVING A   3KW ELECTRIC KETTLE BOILING, AND THAT 4700 UNITS WOULD NOT BE MUCH GOOD.

OF COURSE, KETTLES DON'T BOIL FOR LONG PERIODS. YOU ALSO MENTIONED ELECTRIC FIRES.........WHICH DO BURN LECCY FOR HOURS .

A 2KW ELECTRIC FIRE LEFT ON 5 HOURS PER DAY BURNS   10 UNITS OF LECCY . IN A 100 DAYS PER YEAR , IT BURNS 1000 UNITS ON ITS OWN !!

100 DAYS IS ONLY 27 PER CENT OF A YEAR.........and   5 HOURS IS ONLY 20.8 PER CENT OF A 24 HOUR DAY !!!

Lyn

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 2:24 PM, John Etherington <eth.pbont@virgin.net> wrote:

You wrote

“This argument is very boring – the figure 4.7MWh may be right or wrong – but - it is the OFFICIAL figure and if don’t use it we get ridiculed!”

I agree entirely – it is why I said to Lyn that I don’t want to resume an argument about annual electricity average.

However the 4700 kWh is what RUK (BWEA) uses http://www.bwea.com/ukwed/index.asp - if that is “official”

An even smaller figure appears on the DECC website re energy bills

http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/stats/publications/qep/3906-qep-dec11.pdf

This says of standard electricity: “All bills are calculated assuming an annual consumption of 3,300 kWh.” (page 18 footnote 2 Table 2.2.2)

“Lies, damned lies and statistics”

John

From: Richard, Ioan (Councillor) [mailto:ioan.richard@swansea.gov.uk]
Sent: 13 May 2012 11:55
To: John Etherington; Lyn Jenkins
Cc: Terry Breverton; dave haskell; Jenny Keal; Tim Shaw; Royston Jones; Mark Duchamp; S W; Wyck & Toey; Angela Kelly; Tairgwaith Action Group; Ceinwen Rees; Caroline Evans; alun john richards
Subject: 4700

This argument is very boring – the figure 4.7MWh may be right or wrong – but - it is the OFFICIAL figure and if don’t use it we get ridiculed!

Lyn

Years ago we had a long and boring exchange concerning home electricity use and whether the 4.7 MWh per year is a realistic average for all homes.

I don’t want to go through all that yet again.

Might this not have been noticed? However, if this is the case then we might as well not bother with any numerical analysis as we would have no idea what is true and what isn’t.

ohn